Lets Talk About Race, History, and Social Politics: Question and Answer Session; Bring it On
By FAHIM A. KNIGHT-EL
This article/blog came about as a series of Internet conversations and debates that this writer has had with a number of Caucasians relative to ancient Kemet (Egypt), slavery, culture, reparations and the historical paradigm that evolves around the African/African American experience. The topic of race, just like the topic of religion, is one of those hypersensitive topics and often people become immediately defensive, aggressive, agitated, angered, closed minded, etc. When discussing such a topic, time and again, human beings seem to possess a need to secure their place in the discussion by consciously and/or subconsciously elevating their race, ethnic group, tribe, etc., into the best positive light possible (I think from time-to-time we all are guilty of this).
We have an even greater need to define the political, economic and social history of our clan at all cost, and often the first casualty of our misconstrued reality, is always truth. Perhaps this is a tragic human defect and it will continue to lead to social discord, if humanity fails to reckon with the planet and rapidly move away from injustice—and man’s inhumanity to man. (Reference: Joel Kotkin: “Tribes: How Race, Religion and Identity Determine Success in the New Global Economy”).
Thus, sometime even at the expense of truth, which becomes a compromise for accuracy, legitimacy and genuineness; this is often where humanity has found itself. Many cultures and races, and even us as individuals, are guilty of fallen into this trap of putting forth nationalism and obscuring the veracity of the historical evidence in order to make our case on the stage of human civilization, at any and all expense. (Reference: Cornel West; “Race Matters”).
This discussion pertaining to Kemet, in particular ignited a controversial debate between myself and approximately twenty or so Caucasians who were Internet Bloggers on the David Icke web site. My thesis centered on Kemet (Egypt) being a society that was originally inhabited and built by the Nubians 3,000 years before Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ben Yosef) and I came to this conclusion by reading the works of white scholars such as H.G. Wells, Will Durant, Gerald Massey, Godfrey Higgins, Albert Churchward, George Frazer, etc., which they either came directly out and stated that Kemet was Nubian or gave strong historical inference that indeed Kemet (Egypt) was perhaps Nubian (black African) land. (Reference: Ivan Van Sertima: Great African Thinkers: Cheikh Diop”).
This writer, equally understands that Kemet (Egypt) had been invaded by external forces and civilizations such as the Greeks, Romans, Turks, Phoenicians, Italians, Arabs, etc., and these invasions led to the history of racial miscegenation in which ‘genotypical’ and ‘phenotypical’ the racial identity and physical characteristics of the people of Kemet began to change from how the original people that once inhabited Kemet use to look. But we should not mistaken the light skinned and Caucasian features of the people today who presently occupy Kemet as the original people, because they are not, but these Semitic tribes are mere imposters and have usurped the history and culture of the original people who once occupied Kemet (Egypt). (Reference: George G.M. James; “Stolen Legacy).
The religion of Islam and Christianity are new religions to this region—the Nubians had mastered moral and ethical principles long before the arrival of so-called “Holy” books were to be introduced into Kemet (of course you must know that all spiritual schools thought had their origin in Kemet and Cush). They were in line with the universal order of things. This writer know and understand that racism is a disease and within the American context, it is incurable and will continue to serve as a divisive variable, until we overcome our denial relative to this race issue, which will continue to work towards impeding human social progress. Moreover, my citing that Kemet (Egypt) was Nubian (African and non-Semitic) stirred a hatred and racist frenzy that appeared to be much deeply rooted than our disagreements about the racial identity of the ancient Egyptians. But their disagreement went to the core of a racist mindset that for centuries have been conveyed in the popular political culture, in particular of the United States and Europe and it is still very much unresolved. (Reference: Yosef A.A. Jochannon; “African Origins of Major "Western Religions").
Many of them detest African people and how dare this so-called American “Negro” attribute the highest cultural civilization—Egypt to people of African descent; this by far is the greatest civilization on earth, which to ever be recorded by man. It was unthinkable that this writer would attribute such loftiness to the Nubian (African-Black) race; to them this was blasphemy of the highest order and absurd, because of the unjust perception and racial bias that some Caucasians hold against people of African descendent; thus, even within the intellectual arena. (Reference: John G. Jackson and Willis N. Huggins; “A Guide to Studies in African History”).
However, this writer does not object to their right to have an opinion on all matters including critiquing the African experience and even disagreeing with me and arguing from a basis of historical interpretation and demonstrating an intellectual dissenting conviction that is rooted in research and scholarly evaluation and assessment. This approach is acceptable and is deserving of intellectual consideration and any critique rendered under these premises would hold a lot more merit. We live in the United States of America where free speech is protected under the First Amendment right of the U.S. Constitution and it does not matter how distasteful or obnoxious the speech may be, it too is protected under the United States Constitution, just as any speech that you and I would find agreeable and therefore to censor one’s right to free speech violates one of the fundamental rights that undergirds our fragile democracy. (Reference: Chip Smith; “The Cost of Privilege: Taking on the System of White Supremacy”)
Many that participated in this dialog could not phantom African Nubians constructing the pyramids of ancient Kemet or at least their racial attitudes did not allow them—because in some instances, it was this experience from which their socialization process took shape and developed from which became their worldview. They do not see African people as being intellectually equal to Caucasian people and in most instances they view African people as being inferior, which is rooted in a social structure of white supremacy—this breeds a system of racism on every level—politically, socially and economically. It also feeds into old culture serotypes that Africa is the Dark Continent and black people gave nothing worthwhile to civilization. (Reference: Tim Wise; “White Like Me: Reflections on Race From a Privileged Son”).
Thus, as you read some of the responses in this article you will see the obvious and many of the questions and answers were ingrained in the socio-politics of racism and the 450 year old dilemma and the 6,000 year conflict that has existed since he has been on the planet, which still speaks to race and racism as being unresolved within the United States of America. This writer did minimum editing and for the most part, is presenting this dialog within the context, grammar and thoughts conveyed by these bloggers in order captivate the mindset and present this thinking to my reading audience of the Keeping Real Think Tank, in particular and the broader reading audience in general, for further investigation. (Reference: Michael Bradley; “Iceman Inheritance: Prehistoric Sources of Western Man's Racism, Sexism and Aggression”).
Bendoon stated: Africans hadn't invented the wheel in 1500AD, are you honestly saying that they had chariots in 2000BC? All this stuff is pure fantasy, Black Egyptians, right sure.
Fahim A. Knight-El: Yes, to a racist Eurocentric mindset, it might be considered fantasy, but the pyramids, science and architecture of Kemet stands as proof positive that the Nubians had a high civilization that is unmatched by any other civilization throughout the annals of time. Your comment is emotional and lacks any scholarly proof. This is the type of thinking that we must uproot because it’s this type of thinking that has helped to take humanity off its course; because it lacks respect for other cultures and civilizations and view western civilization as being superior. Please cite your proof and documentation that “All this stuff is pure fantasy, Black Egyptians".
Kingmob stated: Its a only a foolish statement to a fool. You are a racist, and unable to see beyound color unfortunately. Just remember, that adding a few accomplishments on the merit of color adds no value to the "black" race in the eyes of most objective people.
Fahim A. Knight-El: Cheik Anta Diop in his book titled, “The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality” stated, “Ancient Egypt was a Negro civilization. The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in air and can not be written correctly until African historians dare to connect it with the history of Egypt. In particular, the study of languages, institutions, and so forth, can not be treated properly; in a word, it will be impossible to build African humanities, body African human sciences, so long as the relationship does not appear legitimate. The African historian who evades the problem of Egypt is neither modest nor objective, nor unruffled; he is ignorant, cowardly, and neurotic. Imagine, if you can, the uncomfortable position of a western historian who was to write the history of Europe without referring to Greco-Latin Antiquity and try that off as a scientific approach.” (Reference: Cheik Anta Diop; “The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality”).
Zedd stated: That's probably because the people who espouse the ideas are militant in tone and deride white people at any opportunity. Like you just did in your above post about one white person not having their head up their ass, imply the rest (or mostly all) do. It is also because people like yourself ignore any questions and immediately play the race card on those who question you instead of answering legitimate questions, like the one previously posted about why the Egyptians portrayed themselves as being tan, and yet others as being black and white.
Fahim A. Knight-El: I do not think surveying the historical record and evaluating past evidence, is neither black supremacist nor white supremacist in scope, but if the evidence and the data draw us to a reasonable conclusion about certain aspect of history; how willing are we to accept certain outcomes, even if those finds go against the popular version of the truth? Or do we find comfort for the most part, based on our own cultural socialization process and relegate truth to cultural bias and stereotypes. For example, many Caucasians can not even phantom that the people of Kemet were Nubians and often this position is not based on any scholarly findings or intellectual outcomes, but their disposition is often driven by the raw emotions of racism, which is often rooted in a social structure. (Reference: Yosef A.A. Ben Jochannon; “The Black man of the Nile and Family”).
Rapunzel stated: You have never produced any evidence the ancient Egyptians were Nubians. The Egyptians didn't think they were Nubian since they portrayed Nubians very differently than they portrayed themselves. This has been mentioned before but you fail to address it. Why? Can you explain why Egyptian women were painted yellow if they were jet black? And why Egyptian men were painted red if they were jet black?
Fahim A. Knight-El: The Caucasian history only goes back 6,000 years. Thus, that much is a fact; I have given many sources through out the thread; perhaps you need to re-read the thread. Who is the original man? (Reference: Elijah Muhammad; “Message to the Blackman of America).
Bendoon stated: As opposed to your racist Black supremacist mindset? Look its been proved already in this thread that the Egyptians weren't Black, just leave it out you are only making a fool out of yourself. They even left us some mummies with straight red and blonde hair as proof.
Fahim A. Knight-El: I noticed every time someone challenges you all on this forum relative to this topic; you are quick to use the term "Black supremacist" what ever that means, as to dismiss the facts and truth. This is not Black supremacist, the Caucasian history only goes back 6,000 years (that is a truth and fact) and ancient people that occupied Kemet goes back tens of thousands of years (classified as the lineage of the original man, which is also connected to Cush (Ethiopia)—this is where scientist keep on finding fragments of the original man). Now, you do the math and you review the record of the anthropologist and Egyptologist relative to when the external invaders ventured into Kemet. Moreover, and most of these conquering nations left their print relative to miscegenation on the people of Kemet (From the word Chem Land of the Blacks or burnt faces). All of the races you mentioned or colors are rooted in the fathers and mothers of civilization genealogy, which is the original man. (Reference: Paul Lawrence Guthrie; “Making of the Whiteman: History, Tradition and the Teachings of Elijah Muhammad).
Bill23 stated: you may well be right on alot of things but saying 'Remember the Caucasian history only goes back 6,000 years' is like me saying 'white people built the Great Pyramid of Giza'. dont let your hatred of white racists cloud your judgment.
Fahim A. Knight-El: I think my body of work on this forum speaks for it self. I do not have a hatred for whites. I side more with justice and my topic on Kemet was to correct some of the inaccurate historical information, which in many instances has been racist inspired and was designed to denigrate and minimize the African contribution towards world civilization. Moreover, for me to mention that the Caucasian's history only going back 6,000 years was to counter the claim that the people of Kemet was European as some ill-informed scholars and laymen alike have maintained. This article was not written to elevate the Nubian race over, lets say the Semitic race (or so-called mix racial-ethno who by western standards and racial classification is deemed white) but I was attempting to prove that these people were not the original inhabitants of ancient Kemet (Egypt). So I asked the gentleman, who is the original man? I do no think these questions and statements that I have posed can be considered that I have hatred towards whites. Perhaps that assumption is a bit unfair. (Reference: Ella J. Hughley; “The Truth About Black Biblical Hebrew-Israelites (Jews) ).
Blind_raven stated: You are the one putting words in peoples mouths. He was putting very reasonable proof with his source being the artwork that the ancient Egyptians themselves left behind. All he said is that if Egyptians were black, then why did they paint themselves so radically different from the Nubians as a standard? No where did he make any claim that they were Caucasian, only that there is a difference. In fact to quote his words: "that the ancient Egyptians were 100% black". The 100% black implies that he accepts there is some black in them.
Fahim A. Knight-El: Perhaps you do not understand what the word implied and inference mean. He did not have to come right out and say that Ancient Kemet was Caucasian in its ethnicity, but his various post gave an intellectual suggestion that they were. No. we do not have to put words in people's mouths. So, before the miscegenation of Kemet took place, what was the racial identity of the people who occupied what is presently called Egypt by the Greek invaders? Where is your proof that they where not Nubians? I have listed my sources in the above post or are you to hiding behind a Eurocentric frame of reference. (Reference: John G. Jackson: “Introduction to African Civilization).
Blind_raven stated: I know exactly the difference between the two words, and you make inferences all day that everyone on this forum is a white supremest trying to keep black people down. There are more races then the Whites and the Black, and you do not seem to realize this. You are once again throwing around white and no one said they were. You are the one confused if someone could imply that they believe the Egyptians have Nubian ancestry in them, and you infer that they are racist for not accepting that Egyptians were full blooded Nubians. Once again I ask you to explain why the Egyptians chose to paint themselves in a different tone then the Nubians.
Fahim A. Knight-El: Already answered this question; no need to re-entertain or revisit.
Kingmob stated: LOL, you are a racist, no matter how many quotes you try to bring up in order to defend your racist stands. It makes no difference if you are black or white if you make excuses for yourself in order to elevate one color over another.
Fahim A. Knight-El: Relaying historical facts is not based on racial superiority. You just do not have the intellectual tools to debate this topic, and it is a copout, to yell that I am racist and have nothing of substantial to offer to this discussion relative to Kemet. Thus, that is the easy way out; I cite sources and references as documentation and verification (third party independent) of myself. Perhaps you need to be schooled on research methods and what it means to present an empirical argument (based on what can be counted and measured). See you are blowing hot air and have no scholarly defense for your emotional position relative defending your anti-Nubian stance as it pertains to the people of Kemet. Perhaps you do not know that this debate is about whether Kemet was ethnically Nubian. I stand by the many scholars of various disciplines who maintain that historical contention. I asked the question, who is the original man?
This discussion is not about elevating one race of people over another, but it is a healthy conversation to hear what others have to say on this topic; although I might still disagree when it is all said and done. I believe based on my research that ancient Kemetic people where of a Nubian strain. Sir, that is not racist because other scholars have wrote and authored books and scholarly articles espousing the same. Your argument has been deduced to shallowness and it deconstructs itself because it is more rooted in ignorance and possess little to no content relative to the discussion about Kemet. There is no defense for ignorance. But I would like to have an intelligent conversation with you, if you are serious about debating the history and culture of Kemet. (Reference Anthony Browder: "African Contribution to Civilization").
Fahim A. Knight-El: You are trying to hide behind a non-question that has been answered by scholars over and over again. For example, the native Americans and other ethnic cultures painted their faces and bodies for ritualistic ceremonies and at other times for festive celebrations, i.e., they did this to admonish the Gods, war games, marriages, child birth, honoring the changing solstice, etc., They used elaborate symbols and rituals to honor Ra and Ptah—some of this is covered in the Book "Cometh forth by Day" (the Egyptian Book of the Dead). You are looking at the painting of images from the ethnic racial lens of Eurocentric and White Supremacy and really I should not be even be dignifying this type of racist nonsense. Kemet due to racial miscegenation by external nations and after many outside invasions from the Romans, Greeks, Turks, Arabs, Italians, and Phoenicians, etc. took on an entirely new racial identity and classification.
This phenomena came much later in the history of Kemet, which we witness Kemet ethnically transition from a Nubian society into a lighter skinned mulatto people that resembled the Arab imposters who occupies modern Egypt today (they are not the original people). But they the Arabs are new people along with the religion of Islam they brought to Kemet. Now, the Zionist Jews have even further confused the ethnicity of these people in this equation who presently live in North Africa and the so-called Middle East as being Semitic (a mix race of Mediterranean region people) and languages, but fail to tell you that these people are Johnny-come-lately inhabitants of that region and has little kinship with original Nubians who occupied Kemet of yesterday (refer to “Destruction of Black Civilization” by Dr. Chancellor Williams). Your argument has no validity. Once again the Caucasian history only goes back 6,000 years. (Reference: Chancellor Williams: “Destruction of Black Civilization).
Rapunzel stated: You haven't answered my questions at all except to assert, without any evidence that the colours the Egyptians painted on the walls was due to some ritual practice which you have not been able to identify. I suppose this is a better excuse than the Afro-Centrist view I have heard which says that white archaeologists went round repainting all the figures on the tomb paintings! I have never said or even inferred that the Egyptian civilisation was Caucasian. You are the one who seems to be obsessed with race not I. You seem to think that humanity is composed of only two types of people: African blacks and white Caucasians and if the Egyptians are not black then they must be Caucasian. I know of no-one else who views the history of the human race in the rather strange way.
My mindset is not shaped by a Euro centric ideology; it is shaped by what can be observed and proved. As for your authorities, apart from two amateurs from the 19th century, they appear to be Afro-centrists who parrot the same line. It may have become fashionable in some academic circles to pander to these views due to fear of being labelled a racist but in my opinion this is craven cowardice. Facts are facts no matter how much they upset some people.
The ancient Egyptians clearly distinguished Nubians in their art. Why do you think they did this? The ancient Egyptians appear to have been a Mediterranean type people with an admixture of black genes which is what would be expected. They were not racist and the colour of the skin was not important to them. The most important thing was to be Egyptian. What modern Egyptians are is not the issue and need not be discussed.
Fahim A. Knight-El: Racism is a mindset that considers black people as a group as being inferior to whites because of physical (‘genotypical’ and ‘phenotypical’) traits. The racist further believes that these physical traits are detriments of social behavior and moral or intellectual qualities, and ultimately presumes that this inferiority is a legitimate basis for inferior social treatment of black people in society.
Dr. Asa Hilliard who authored book titled, “Reawakening of the African Mind” stated, “mental bondage is invisible violence. Formal physical slavery has ended in the United States. Mental slavery continues to this present day. This slavery affects the minds of all people and, in one way, it is worst than physical slavery alone. That is, the person who is in mental bondage will self-contained. Not only will that person fail to challenge beliefs and patterns of thought which control him, he will defend and protect those beliefs and patterns of thought virtually with his last dying effort.”
You keep mentioning a so-called Mediterranean type people; could you please give us the ethnic and racial classification of these people. When I last checked Kemet (Egypt) sits on the African continent only a small portion borders the Mediterranean Sea. There is no such thing or unless you are grouping the people of Greece, Italy, Turkey, Spain, Israel, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Lebanon, etc., under one ethnicity and one racial classification, which you call Mediterranean people. This assertion is ridiculous and has no bearing on how these people of these sovereign nations identify themselves. Egypt is in Africa and it has always been in Africa, what part of that geography that you do not understand. (Reference: Asa Hilliard; “Reawakening of the African Mind” ).
Rapunzel stated: There is evidence of very ancient man in Pakistan and Asia and there is no agreement between scientists as to where the original humans came from whether they arose in one place and spread out or whether they arose in several places at more or less the same time. Perhaps you should read more. Even if mankind originated in Africa as you maintain how do we know that these humans had black skin? Chimpanzees live in Africa and have pale skin but are protected by their layers of hair. Early man also had layers of hair so it's not unreasonable to question the colour of skin that early man had.
It depends what you mean by "history" and what you mean by "Caucasian". Are you saying there were no humans at all in Europe until 6000 years ago? You are trying to explain away the contradiction between the paintings the Egyptians made of themselves and your belief that the ancient Egyptians were black. I am quite aware that some cultures have painted colourful designs onto their bodies for various ritualistic reasons but I look forward to your explanation, using ancient sources only, that this is the reason high class Egyptian women were painted yellow/cream. It's noticeable in the paintings that working women were painted slightly darker. Obviously they were forced to be out in the sun a lot whereas wealthy women could stay inside or in the shade.
I'm very familiar with the Book of Coming Forth by Day. Nowhere does it say that whole body colours were changed for ritualistic reasons. You call what I am saying "racist nonsense" but you have provided no proof that the ancient Egyptians were 100% black. Nor have you given me an explanation as to why the Egyptians clearly painted themselves totally different to the way they painted the Nubians. My argument has validity; yours comes from wishful thinking
Fahim A. Knight-El: Yes, I did reference the Torah and you have not giving anything to refute the testimony. Thus, I gave you the lineage and I am waiting for you to cite your sources and lay out the lineage of the people of Kemet. The Caucasian history only goes back 6000 years. So we do know this much the original people of Kemet were not Caucasians and we further know this much the Nubians have a much older civilization than western man. So what was the likelihood of the people of Kemet being Nubians, as opposed to Caucasians (I know historian Erik Von Daniken said the ancient pyramid builders dropped out of space). Second point: I can point to all the works of Dr. Cheik Anta Diop and Dr. John Jackson's works in which both of these scholars have done monumental work in anthropology, Egyptology, archeology, genetics, race, paleontology, etc. and have verified that Kemet was a Nubian culture. Here is another good source "Destruction of Black Civilization" by Dr. Chancellor Williams. He traced how in Kemet the darker skinned original people were pushed to the south. Now, we also know this much for a fact, the people that occupies Egypt today are Johnnie-come-late imposters along with their Semitic kith and kin those who called themselves Jews. You still did not answer the question, who is the original man? Please stop giving me these abstract—no answers. (Reference: Chancellor Williams: “Destruction of Black Civilization).
Thelonious stated: That book has been widely discredited. Here, for example, is one of many claims that G.M. James' book is fraudulent: http://www.prometheism.net/euvolution/legacy.html
James's 1954 book 'Stolen Legacy' is a deliberate perversion of history to support the false claim that black Egyptians were the true originators of Greek philosophy. James's unsupported theories have been taken as fact by many people unfamiliar with Greek history. - From the above link.
Fahim A. Knight-El: No. I disagree, there is no doubt that Plato, Socrates, Aristotle and many more Greek philosophers who originated Greek philosophy were influenced by the Sages of Kemet either directly or indirectly; there is proof positive that the Greeks stole (or may be the most proper way of saying it is that the Greeks borrowed) a sizable amount of its mythology from ancient Kemet; surely ancient Kemet predated Greek civilization by some thousands of years.
Some white and western academics took issue with the entire Afrocentric movement of the late 1980s and the 1990s. Many Afrocentric intellectuals and scholars used George G.M. James book as one source, which to disapprove an intellectual worldview that was rooted in white supremacy ideology and challenged old norms that advocated that the world evolved around Europe and western civilization.
However James' work predated the Afrocentric movement by 30-40 years and he had garnished a sizable amount of scholarly credibility prior the Afrocentric movement embracing his scholarship.
The Zionist Jews and Black Nationalist scholars were deeply at odds with each other in the early 1990s; in particular after Reverend Jesse Jackson presidential run in 1984, in which Zionist Jews and even Jackson eventually repudiated Minister Louis Farrakhan and falsely labeling him anti-Semitic, but black America who had been accustom to following the dictates of the Zionist Jew, bucked on the Zionist and continued to embrace Minister Farrakhan at the disapproval of Zionist forces (this position furthered the rift).
Also this position angered the Zionist Jews and created a further political, economic and social wedge between two people—Zionist Jews and Blacks who had been traditional allies. These disputes played themselves out on various fronts; in particular after the Nation of Islam Historical Research Department published the controversial book titled, "The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews" (which was adopted by the African centered movement) and right after that the Zionist attacked one of the big named Afrocentric professors from Wellesley College in the New England area named Dr. Tony Martin who dared to use the Nation of Islam book as supplemental reading inside his classroom.
But there were Zionist agents planted in Dr. Martin's classroom who had an objective to disrupt this peaceful academic setting. This event led to Dr. Martin publishing a book titled, "Jewish onslaught" and few a years later his colleague, the Zionist scholar Mary Lefkowitz wrote the book titled, "Not Out Of Africa" which she attacked professor James as a pseudo historian and accused him of fabricating the history of Kemet to favor the Nubians.
Lefkowitz made every attempt to construct Greek and Roman society as being almost independent of Egyptian (she tried to take Egypt out of Africa and place Kemet in the Middle East and ethnically labeled the people as Semites) influence and at best it was perhaps and equal cultural exchange between the two societies and the two European societies were not as interdependent upon Kemet as James maintained.
Mary Lefkowitz felt that James historical accounts were the basis and the premises from which the African-centered theories rested; thus, if she could discredit James this would dismantle the intellectual foundation of the entire African centered movement. James was just one scholar of this intellectual movement and all of his contentions were well cited. There is much more to this, but let me put a pin in this for now. (Reference: Tony Martin: “The Jewish Onslaught”).
RR X Stated: Scholarly? "I make no claims to being a scholar - only that I found it amusing that you would promote an Afrocentric theory by using authors who claimed Egypt for the white man, as your proof that Egypt was exclusively Nubian. I mentioned India and last time I checked that wasn't in Europe."
Fahim A Knight-El: If the Afrocentric is speaking the truth; then truth is the truth. It does not matter who the truth teller is, ethnic or racial factor or variable do not lend more credibility relative to a fact of truth. Thus, your above comment further predisposed your unwillingness to consider scholars and their scholarship just because you have placed the label "Afrocentric" subtly implying and with the inference that this is something negative and not worthy of intellectual consideration.
RR X Stated: "You claim to be a scholar yet you don't seem to be aware that Knight and Lomas were writing that Hiram Abiff was a real person in history because they claimed to have found his mummy - this does not support your Osiris analysis. Knight and Lomas also have a book out called 'Uriel's Machine' where they argue that all sciences had their root in Western Europe - a position which does not correspond to your Khemit hypotheses"
Fahim A Knight-El: Whether Knight and Lomas consider Hiram Abiff as a real person or not, it is inconsistent with the Masonic teachings of the majority Grand Masonic Lodges and their Jurisdictions within the United States, in particular within the Ancient Free and Accepted Masonic body and the Prince Hall (Free and Accepted Masons). Now! I have access to many official Masonic Monitors from both the Scottish Rite and the York Rite side and I have been involved in Masonic research for a very long time. Speculative Masonry and all Masonry teach and view the story of Hiram Abiff as a SYMBOLIC and MYTHOLOGICAL figure. Moreover, the character is inconsistent with the biblical interpretation and every Master Mason that is raised in the Masonic ritual is taught that fact. There is a biblical Hiram described as Hiram of Tyree, but this is not the Masonic Hiram; yet this Hiram is spoken about within mythical legend of the building of King Solomon Temple. All the major Masonic Historians ranging from Manly P. Hall, Albert Pike, Albert Mackey, etc., teaches that Hiram Abiff is a symbolic character. Where did they find the mummy in Kemet? Perhaps it is King Hiram of Tyree (to separate Masonic individuals). (JSM Ward; “Who is Hiram Abiff”).
RR X Stated: "YOU claimed that Blavatsky traced everything to Egypt in Isis Unveiled yet the passage YOU quoted if YOU bothered to read the rest of the page said that Egypt and Ethiopia were colonized from India. I'm not saying if that is true only highlighting how your scholarship decided to stop reading after you felt your point had been proven. If YOU bothered to check just the contents page of that book you could have verified everything I said (that is of course if you have the book and weren't just parroting someone else’s work). I read the Blavatsky passage that was provided and the following sentences contradicted what YOU claimed it said. That is poor scholarship if it can even be called that"
Fahim A Knight-El: Yes: I quoted Madam H.P. Blavatsky words accurately and precisely relative to her comment about Egypt (Kemet) feeding and enlighten the world in culture. The quote is not out of context nor have I added anything to Blavatsky words. However, if you wanted to make a different scholarly argument that is your right and prerogative. The original Dravidians inhabited India long before the imposters that occupy India to today. No, doubt India and China are ancient civilizations (I am surprised to hear a Eurocentric at least admonish that point). But Kemet (Egypt) has the oldest recorded civilization known to humanity. Yes, the Nubians. We reject the Greek names of Egypt and Ethiopian—these are the names giving by the colonizers. (Reference: Madam H.P. Blavatsky; “Isis Unveiled”).
"RR X Stated: Nobody said Egypt was in the middle east. lol."
Your inferences were good enough for me because many of the Eurocentric scholars have suspended Kemet (Egypt) in the so-called Middle East and your argument defense resemble the mindset of your brothers. "I never denied that. I only pointed out that the authors you cited (like Blavatsky) stated that Egypt also either borrowed or was influenced. Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva predates Osiris, Horus, Isis."
Fahim A Knight-El: REALLY!: You did not cite any proof of your claim; I have given you many references and sources for all of my contentions; on almost EVERY POINT I made there is a citation and scholarly documentation. You are writing just to sooth your large ego. WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT? PLEASE STATE YOUR POSITION, but right now you are just taking a reactionary position.
RR X Stated: "For a so called scholar her knowledge of ancient Greece was not of a particularly high standard and she should refrain from any Masonic comments in future as she clearly doesn't know what she's talking about. My argument is not the same as hers because I never stated my argument. I am not denying the Egyptian influences within Christianity, Ancient Greece or Rome only your statements of Egypt being the beginning point."
Fahim A Knight-El: You will not get an argument from me on that point. We are in agreement about Mary Leftkowitz inept and her poor Masonic worldview. Amen! (Reference: Mary Leftkowitz; “Not Out of Africa”).
RR X Stated: "Let me now state the main problems with your research - it's nothing new. If you bothered to check this site before posting you will have already seen how citing Kersey Graves won't go far. The solar mythos has been argued a million times on this site (and I actually agree that Christ is a composite character). And the scholars you cited will hold no weight as they are theosophists and Freemasons who have always been using opposing arguments to Christians. It seems to me that you've only recently come across this information and field of research as your article is not very well thought out and the scholarship is poor. You probably recently came across Zeitgeist."
Fahim A Knight-El: This was the most laughable and ridiculous point you made. Let me start by saying this THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. The majority of every thought, thread, idea, philosophy, etc., on the site is just recycled information, but that does not compromise intellectually credibility. For example, what might be old information to you could be new information to someone who has not heard or come in contact with a source of information. So, the terms "Old and "New" is RELATIVE. You are really funning; you stated: "You probably recently came across Zeitgeist." Really! Will not dignify the comment.
You got to come better than what you are presenting, which is nothing but a recycle Eurocentric argument
Bendoon stated: Germany pays around 1 million Euros a year to Israel 64 years after WW2, a child born today in Germany will be paying towards this compensation as soon as they start work in 16 to 20 years time. How absurd is that, that people who weren't even alive when a crime was commited will have to pay compensation when all the victims will be dead.
Only Jews could dream up such a disgraceful scam. Whats the difference between that and African Americans asking for compensation for slavery ? none except slavery was a lot longer in the past.
Fahim A. Knight-El: Reparations as a topic is very close to my heart as an African American and as a descendent of slaves. But here are a few brief thoughts that I have on the topic and perhaps someone on this enlightened forum need to write something in depth on the topic of Reparations. We will never back down from such a discussion. Chattel Slavery wasn’t anything created in Hollywood, it was the real deal and this movement isn’t based on a historical hoax nor is it an unjust financial shakedown.
We as Africans of the Diaspora and the descendants who survived the most brutal acts of man’s inhumanity to man, have been inspired by our ancestors to seek justice; moreover, our ancestors were kidnapped, raped, robbed, murdered, etc.—Chattel slavery endured from 1619-1865, (although the Transatlantic Slave trade was outlawed in 1807) for 310 years this was an accepted economic arrangement. It was slave labor that built the economic foundation of the United States and the present day white Americans and their European brethrens are the private and corporate beneficiaries of the legacy of slavery. The Reparations Movement is not anti-America, but the majority of Black Americans who are sane and in their right minds views it as a call toward achieving historical justice and righting a historical wrong.
Reparations; We as Africans of the Diaspora and the descendants indeed survived the most brutal acts of mans inhumanity to man, thus, there are many around the country that have been inspired by our ancestors to seek justice. Moreover, our African ancestors as I stated above were kidnapped, raped, robbed, murdered, etc., and it was slave labor that built the economic foundation of the United States and the present day Americans and their European counterparts such as: Spain, Portugal, Great Britain, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Italy, etc.
All of these European nations were the beneficiaries of this forced labor arrangement and should be mandated by the United Nations to pay reparations to African-Americans based on their participation in the Transatlantic Slave Trade and the Middle Passage. All the said nations are the private and corporate beneficiaries of the legacy of slavery and this much is undeniable.
The reparations movement is based on a proposed solution of correcting a historical wrong and amending that wrong by compensating the descendants of this human tragedy.
The majority of American scholars such as Kenneth Stamp, Stanley Elkins, Herbert Aptheker, John Hope Franklin, W.E.B. Dubois, etc., agree that blacks in this country (in the United States and the Americas) arrived as slaves and the present generation of blacks is here based on that historical tragedy. Yet, we are 150 years removed from slavery and although, the topic of Reparations has been echoed throughout American History and for the most part it has stalled because blacks lack the political lobby and the financial wither-all too seriously sway this racist nation to engage in a serious conversation relative to the Reparations debate.
President Bill Clinton was prepared to issue African Americans in this country an official United States Governmental apology for the wrongs of slavery in the 1990s, but it was later deemed politically expedient for the president to remain quiet on such topic and not issue Africans an official government apology. I assume his legal advisors, advised him not to do this because this admission of guilt perhaps could be used by Africans in their legal quest for Reparations and legally hold America liable to pay Africans living in America a 150 year old outstanding debt.
The Southern Baptist, a predominantly white Christian association, a few years ago had the humanity and the proper spirit of God to admit the wrongdoings of the Christian church in slavery. They did not go to the grave yard and issue this apology to the dead, which would have been partially suffice, but the church issued the apology to the living ancestors of those who lived and died under the evil institution of slavery.
U.S. Representative John Conyers, a Democrat of Michigan (presently chairman of the Judicial Committee) has introduced into Congress a Reparations Bill titled H.R. 40, which is in theory, is a fact finding committee offered to study the possibility of Reparations for the descendents of Africa. Chattel Slavery still remains the greatest crime that was ever committed against humanity. The United States Congress recently issued black descendents of slaves a weak official governmental apology, but made no offer to repair the historical damage.
In reality, we do not need a fact finding committee, here we are the sons and daughters of Africa who have been robbed of the knowledge of self, snatched from our native land, made inferior, unjustly persecuted, destroyed our family bonds, etc., in the name of greed and capitalism.
Throughout the history of black America there have been movements and leaders that took up the fight to advocate for Reparations. For example, Marcus Garvey, the black nationalist and founder of the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA), W.E.B. Dubois and his Pan-African Congress Movement, Elijah Muhammad and the Nation of Islam, Paul Cuffee, a Boston ship builder who was one of the earliest exponents of the Back to Africa Movement, The Christian ministers Martin Delaney and Henry Highland Garnett, etc., also were early exponents of the Reparations Movement.
They all either in aggressive politics or passive politics did raise the question of Reparations for the African descendents of those who suffered under chattel slavery. Randall Robinson, the former Executive Director of TransAfrica, a political lobbyist group that advocates on behalf of the interest of Africa in Congress wrote perhaps one the most definitive books on the subject of Reparations titled, "The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks", which explores and names the public and private companies and their present day subsidiaries that were financially and corporately historically tied to Chattel Slavery.
For example, it was slave labor that brought untold wealth to Phillip Morris Brothers Tobacco, J.R. Reynolds Tobacco, Ligget and Myers Tobacco, American Tobacco, which allowed the Dukes to accumulate, as well as other private and corporate entities untold financial wealth. The United States Government and private U.S. corporations are guilty of being active participants and collaborators in the slave trade; moreover, no amount of money could ever repair the irreparable damage that was perpetrator against black humanity. Slavery was the greatest act of negligence ever committed on one race of people and all those who played a part are considered financially liable.
The only thing they initially said that we were legally entitled to was 40 Acres and a Mule. If our great, great, great grandparents did not receive this promise yesterday, then the debt still remains outstanding. It is then still owed by the federal government to the African descendants of America. There is a way to determine if your ancestor was a slave and if they ever received their land and a mule. If they did not, then that is a debt owed by the U.S. Government in 2009. Could you imagine the value of 40 acres of land and all monetary interest that has compounded.
I am a supporter of Reparations and view it as just cause, but not withstanding the reparations movement has had both its internal and external critics from both the white community and the black community and there appear not to be any happy medium. (Reference: Randal Robinson: “The Debt: What America Owes Blacks”).
Bendoon stated: What a load of ignorant self centered, self pitying crap.People have suffered just as much through all history, last century 70 million Chinese were killed by their own Government as were 30 million Russians. Why don't you just drop the self pity, like Bill Cosby said it just holds you back, blaming someonelse for all your problems.
Fahim A. Knight-El: The Russians and the Chinese (the Russians have Russia and Chinese has China) were not robbed from the base of their feet to crown of their head. They have a common culture, language, and land. You are truly missing the point and your argument is very emotional. We lost over 50 million Africans during the Transatlantic Slave Trade and the Middle Passage and there was no system of evil that was comparative to Chattel Slavery (1555-1865), which lasted for 310 years (three centuries). This was one of the greatest criminal acts ever recorded anywhere in human history. Thus, because of this tragedy hundreds of millions of African people have been scattered throughout the Diaspora and are lost to the knowledge of self. When you rob a people of their language and land, it is the basic ingredient for culture destruction and it cuts them off from a tradition that is rooted in the power of memory and which is design to give them a historical reference point that connects them to something much bigger than themselves.
Slavery emasculated that sovereign right to Africa and now people of African dissent are left scattered as vagabonds of France, United Kingdom, Spain, Germany, Italy, United States, (alien nations and cultures), etc. Bill Cosby is one voice and he is entitled to his opinion, but our ancestors are crying out for justice and we have the job, duty and responsibility to never allow ourselves nor the historical perpetrators to overlook this human tragedy in name of trying to minimize the social, political and economic damage caused by Chattel Slavery; by espousing ignorance and using glossy diversionary tactics to confuse the issue. We must have an honest conversation about race and racism and allow the chips to fall as they may. I hope this response clarifies for you our position and we are not dealing from a basis of emotionalism. (Reference: Walter Rodney: “How Europe Under Developed Africa”).
Bendoon stated: Arabs took far more slaves from Africa than Europeans ever did, over a far longer period. They castrated the men and used the women as sex slaves. What about the Jewish slave ship owners ? When you start asking them for reparations you might get some respect. Till then you are just a working a scam on whitey, an easy target.
Fahim A. Knight-El: This is what you do not understand. You have to at first admit that Chattel Slavery did take place and once you can get out of this state of denial and admit we have problem; thus, only then can we pursue a possible course towards a solution. This much of your argument is valid, which is yes the Arabs under Islam in the 8th Century created the Trans-Sahara slave trade and they transported Africans across Africa into the Middle East as slaves and they are guilty and in complicit of slavery by also dispossessing Africa and its people of their humanity. But Islamic missionaries and Arab slave makers based on the principles of the Qur'an had a very different form and system of slavery (their slavery was not equivalent to Chattel Slavery) than the Christian missionaries.
For example, you might find a Senegalese Muslim from West Africa and although Islam is not the indigenous faith, however you can see that these people that accepted Islam did not lose their historical and cultural reference point. But the infusion of their African culture is well intact and interacts side by side with Islam. Islam did not destroy or wipeout many of the African customs and traditions. Thus, in many ways it complimented African folkways, mores', values, customs, traditions, etc. Yes, the Arabs are part of the reparations equations and they too are guilty of raping and robbing Africa in the name of Islam. Yes, the Jews were African slave merchants, brokers and financiers of the African Slave Trade and they too are part of the reparations equation. The Nation of Islam historical Research Department published one of the most definitive books on the Jewish involvement in the African Slave Trade titled, "The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews".
Last but not least, African nations themselves who worked in alliance with the Europeans who captured Africans from the Hinterlands and sold them to the slave merchants are also part of the reparations equation. I do not know where you are getting your information, but you are truly misinformed about what the reparation movement entails. It is not just an inclusive movement aimed at financially shaking down Europeans. Money is just a portion, but there is much more to this tragedy than just financial compensation. Black America had a Gross National Product (GNP) over 800 billion dollars last year, which would make us the 12th or 13th richest nation on earth, if we were a sovereign independent nation. So you are not talking about a people who do not have the ability to do for themselves. Sir, this is about legal justice and fostering this issue on the table of the United Nations as a human rights violation and eventually pushing it all the way to the world courts. Now! I am not in the business of continuing to argue with ignorance. (Reference: Edward W. Blyden; “Christianity, Islam and the Negro Race”).
Rapunzel stated: No you didn't. You gave me the mythical lineage from the Hebrew Bible.
I don't know; neither do you nor do we know who the "original woman" was, if there was one. It has never been proved that mankind originated from just two people.
I am trying to say that the Egyptians were not exclusively Black, nor were they Caucasians, if by that you mean white. The world is not divided between black and white you know. Were the ancient African Libyans black? They were painted as paler skins than the Egyptians. The Egyptians did not represent themselves as black though some of them undoubtedly had some black blood in them. One of the Mentuhotep pharaohs was married to a Nubian princess. The Egyptians were not racist and married into numerous different peoples.
Around 730 BC Egypt was invaded by Nubia and a line of Nubian pharaohs took over for 75 years
Fahim A. Knight-El: I have answered your questions over and over again. I have deconstructed the first fallacy that you have implied relative to the inference that ancient Kemet was Caucasian, which is the covert root of your argument and you are attempting to use intellectual distractions to shield a mindset that has been shaped by Eurocentric ideology. I have given you facts, but you insist upon giving us undocumented rhetoric. Here are my sources.
"African Presences in Early Asia" By Ivan Sertima
"Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire" by Drusilla Houston
"Black man of the Nile and his Family" by Yosef A.A. Jochannon
"African Origin Of Civilization" by Cheik Anta Diop
"Civilization Or Barbarism" by Cheik Anta Diop
"Ethiopia the Missing Link" Sterling Meanings
"Introduction to African Civilization" by John G. Jackson
"Ancient Egypt the Light of the World" by Gerald Massey
"Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man" by Albert Churchward
“Anacalypsis: An Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis or an Inquiry" by Godfrey Higgins
"African Contribution to Civilization" by Anthony Browder
"African Glory: The Story of Vanished Negro Civilizations" by J.C. deGraft-Johnson
"Metu Neter" by Ra Un Nefer Amen
"The Journey of the Songhai People" by Napendo Ulinzi Milele
"Yurugu" by Marimba Ani
"Predynastic Egypt: An African-centric view" by James Edward Brunson and Runoko Rashidi
The above represents a list of scholars and scholarly works that proves based on extensive research that (Kemet) Egypt was a Nubian society. Now, could you please list your documentation for your argument that Kemet was Caucasian or cite some sources for your argument. Thus give us something to substantiate your argument
Fahim A. Knight-EL Chief Researcher for KEEPING IT REAL THINK TANK located in Durham, NC; our mission is to inform African Americans and all people of good will of the pending dangers that lie ahead; as well as decode the symbolisms and reinterpret the hidden meanings behind those who operate as invisible forces, but covertly rules the world. We are of the belief that an enlighten world will be better prepared to throw off the shackles of ignorance and not be willing participants for the slaughter. Our MOTTO is speaking truth to power. Fahim A. Knight-EL can be reached at firstname.lastname@example.org.
STAY AWAKE UNTIL WE MEET AGAIN,
Fahim A. Knight-EL